Comment by Milly

June 1, 2007 @ 11:47 pm

As hard as it must be it seems as if there is a season in life when you know you must leave. I watched my friends go from the church that I attend some go with happiness some with heavy hearts and pain. I’ll keep you in my prayers while you make this choice.

Comment by Donna

June 2, 2007 @ 9:29 am

I am going through the same process….it is much harder than it seems to be.

Comment by Brian

June 2, 2007 @ 11:02 pm

Milly & Donna - Thank you both for taking the time to comment and show your support for us. It helps knowing there are people out there who can relate to what we’re going through.

Comment by Kathy

June 3, 2007 @ 4:59 pm

The framework you describe rings a bell, definitely.

May God give you wisdom and direction. Thanks for the kind words, too.

Comment by Brian

June 3, 2007 @ 11:17 pm

Thanks for dropping by, Kathy. I haven’t forgot that I still owe you an e-mail. Maybe by that time I sit down to write it I’ll know what to say.

Comment by TCS

June 4, 2007 @ 10:11 am

We went through the same process and in December we left. It has not been easy in lots of ways but I believe that you can find a place where people love Jesus with all their hearts and love the people that Jesus loves.

Comment by jlove

June 4, 2007 @ 9:19 pm

Well…I’ve been thinking about this for a few days now, but still haven’t thought of anything really useful to say. So I just thought I would jot down a few thoughts and let you know that we sympathize with you.

1. For me…church is about relationships. If I can’t find meaningful, ‘doing life together’ relationships, then I don’t think I could stay somewhere.

2. I have just decided that I’m only going to look for agreement on a few big issues. Other than that, I plan to let the rest of it slide. Maybe that is a cop-out, but it is the only way (so far) that I can accomplish priority #1 and still live with myself.

3. If I try to have more than 2 points, then I drive myself crazy.

Long story short, I really feel for you guys and your situation. I know we’ve spoken about this subject before, and I always hope for things to change, but so far I know they haven’t.

I think you have some really good starting points. Apparently there isn’t an easy answer on this one, but I think your patience and perseverance in seeking the right way and not just a quick fix will pay off for you.

Know that you are always welcome to vent or wrestle with your thoughts as much as you like on here, on the phone, or in person.

Comment by Kathy

June 4, 2007 @ 9:46 pm

You don’t owe me an email! I asked my questions in sympathy for what you’re processing right now, please don’t feel any obligation. I know some questions just take too darn long to sort out into a coherent email! It’d be different if we could chat about it over the back fence.

Comment by Reon

June 5, 2007 @ 8:43 am

Boy, we could talk about this issue ad nauseam. You know where a good place is to hash out issues like this is? K-town, baby! Lots of great thinking and decision-making goes on here, especially if a bottle of wine and fresh-baked bread is involved (and a new house!). :O)

Oh, we feel so much for you all. There are so many great families and people at that church; I was devastated to leave them when we did. But there are also so many things I notice when we return for visits that make me really glad we’re not there anymore. I’d definitely have a hard time if we ever moved back.

I’m curious to know about the kids’ issues. Are you pleased with the teaching they’re getting, and the relationships they’re building, or is that a contentious issue, also?

While I agree with Jlove, that you must agree on the essentials and have the grace to let some things slide for the sake of relationships, when you disagree with MOST of the non-essential issues being reflected from the pulpit, it not only makes relationship-building difficult (i.e.: how many other people agree with the same things you’re disagreeing with?), but it’s hard to come to church in a worshipful frame of mind (at least for me, it is).

I hope that makes sense. We will certainly be praying for you. I know how difficult this decision is.

Comment by Brian

June 6, 2007 @ 8:49 am

Thanks for the thoughtful comments guys. I’m traveling right now but will try to respond later on tonight after I’m home.

Comment by Jenn

June 7, 2007 @ 11:21 am

Reon,

The kids are sort of an issue. They have some good friends, and the teaching they have received so far we have been at least somewhat involved in. Which is both good and bad. I mean, I don’t remember ever having to un-teach something they’ve been taught. We have sort of re-taught a couple of things, but only to stress points that we wanted to stress, not to correct the original teaching.

The biggest issue for us is that this church is all they have ever known. We’ve talked about it and pretty much decided (at least I think) that while it might not be an easy transition for them, they would handle a move much better now than later on. And really it’s only the girls (ages 7 & 5) that we have any real concern over. If the nursery area has a truck, S2 will be happy.

The issue when considering things from their perspective what sort of place would suit them, and does that place exist in our town? Brian and I have talked a little about not wanting to have to constantly un-teach what a new church might be teaching them, so that is important, too. Things we might be able to overlook or just agree to disagree with might be too much for our kids to have to deal with. Make sense?

As I type this, hundreds of thoughts flood my thinking. (sigh) I know the Perfect Church doesn’t exist, but I find myself longing for somewhere that feels more like home. I’ve never been through divorce, but I imagine what I feel about this situation must be similar to what a child in a divorce must feel. Is is my fault? What did I do wrong? Why can’t it just go back to the way it was? What’s going to happen next? Who will take care of me?

I’m eager to get to the other side of this, but recognize that it might be a while. I know that God will see us through, but sometimes I’d prefer the express shuttle, you know?

Comment by Lynn

June 7, 2007 @ 1:16 pm

This is very hard, and I will be praying for you.

Comment by Lynn

June 7, 2007 @ 1:35 pm

One emotional problem I have is our church is so big, and we live in a fairly large community. Everybody is involved in so many different things. Church to me feels fragmented, and like I don’t have close connections, even though I do.

I understand the comment about wanting to feel “at home.”

Many years ago, when our church was going through a rough time, I remembered the TV show “Cheers,” and while I didn’t watch it much, I LOVED the theme song “Everybody Knows Your Name.” “And they’re always glad you came.”

And I felt sad because the song was about these fictional characters who felt that way about their favorite bar, and I couldn’t feel that way about church, which is where those feelings ought to be felt.

It’s the impersonal and detached and unrelational aspect that is wearisome. I connect to people if I’m working on the same projects they are working on. There are some people I used to be close to who now just speak to me cordially, simply because we don’t run around in the same circles. Perhaps they’ve come to dislike me, or are tired of me. I don’t know. But you can tell when you try to connect with some people and relate to them, and feel like you’ve spoken to a wall. Usually the case is their “slots are all filled,” and they just don’t have room for more.

I can’t complain too much without recalling good gifts God has given, At 6:00AM today I met with my best friend and two other close friends at Bob Evans for our every other week/once a month breakfast. I have another friend who calls me every night to keep me accountable with my nutritional program/water intake/exercise (I’m trying to avoid diabetes). These are all women I met in church. And I am thankful for them.

Sometimes I think I must be taking a lot for granted, and that’s why I’m not content. But what I really think is that ritual replaces the first romance, and that includes how we interact with people at church too, not just our relationship to God and our marriages. And that is a dry, parched place to be.

And if this is all it is, sometimes just visting around to other churches can be enough to make a person realize they might want to stay where they are. Sometimes a permanent change is decided upon, for a variety of factors.

Isn’t it good to know we’re always being guided by the unseen hand of a gracious God?

Comment by reon

June 7, 2007 @ 5:20 pm

Things we might be able to overlook or just agree to disagree with might be too much for our kids to have to deal with. Make sense?

Jenn,
Absolutely it makes sense. If you’re at least not dissatisfied with what the kids are learning at church, then there’s a checkmark for the “Stay” column. And they do have a solid group of friends their age (well, the older ones do, anyway), and I’ve seen how important it is to have a solid peer group through working with the teenagers where we are. I know you’re a while from having teenagers, but there’s something to be said for growing up with a group of kids from Godly families.

The problem with not having any other real options where you are is HUGE, and sort of puts a halt on many thoughts I have. You know, helping you consider points A, B, C & D for leaving vs. staying doesn’t do much good when there’s nowhere to go. When we moved south a couple of years ago, and it took us a year to find a church, it was one of the most frustrating and confusing times in our lives, and we were miserable. At least there we had options. No express shuttle, but options.

Any thoughts on doing the home church thing with other disgruntled church members (and we both know who they are)? That never seems like a fun option, but maybe it would be a good temporary break for a while.

Or you could just sell your house and move to Reonville! That seems like the best option at this point. If you’re going to start over, might as well start waaay over.

Comment by Jenn

June 8, 2007 @ 9:54 am

Reon,

Sorry. Selling the house is not an option at this point. To be honest, a year ago, I might have answered you differently, but I feel fairly convinced that our feet are firmly planted. And it feels good to be able to say that. It just puts a kink in the whole church decision thing.

Home church-ing doesn’t really appeal to me at this point either. We’re still in regular contact with those folks you referenced, and we joke a little about it. But they’ve been there, done that - without much success. And the last thing we all want is for our “church” time to become a place of perpetual venting. We are meeting together just to hang and enjoy each other’s company, though. And to keep each other accountable for the finding a new place thing. We’re hoping to learn a little from the way they handle things, but so far, they’re still at square one.

*************
Lynn,

You said some things that really struck me. Especially this:

Sometimes I think I must be taking a lot for granted, and that’s why I’m not content. But what I really think is that ritual replaces the first romance, and that includes how we interact with people at church too, not just our relationship to God and our marriages. And that is a dry, parched place to be.

Wow. I need to think about this. I mean really think about this. I’ve struggled with contentment issues in lots of areas off and on. It’s become natural for the alarm to go off in my head when I’m feeling this way and for me to automatically call it discontent. Your thoughts put a whole new spin on things. Thank you.

Now I have to go think and pray about this. Hmmm….

Comment by Brian

June 9, 2007 @ 12:18 am

Wow! Lots of good, long comments. Thanks guys for taking the time to stop by and give us your thoughts and encouragement.

I may not address all the issues raised over the past few days and Jenn has done a good job representing both of us but I do want to comment on a few things.

Kids - The girls are still at the fact-learning stage in Sunday School. Mostly Bible stories and stuff like that. I might wish there was more “big picture” presented in A7’s class but there is nothing to really unteach.

This is going to sound bad, but my main concern is what they’re going to pick up sitting under our pastor. And since all kids 1st grade and up are in the entire service that’s already started. And it’s not just the teaching itself but the attitude. I won’t go into any more detail than that.

Essentials - Jlove, I’m not quite at your stage yet. Ideally, I’d like more than a few essentials. What I’d like is a basic agreement in philosophy on how we go about doing things. Maybe I can flesh that out some more in future posts.

Lynn - Let me echo Jenn’s comments on what you said about being content. Definitely something to ponder upon.

I think Jenn’s divorce analogy is really good. I have a tendency to second guess myself anyway and so I tend to wonder if the only problem is really me. I honestly don’t think it is but I tend to err in that direction.

Comment by J-Mom

June 11, 2007 @ 1:59 pm

I’ve been trying to stay out of this, but I thought I’d share two thoughts - both learned through personal experience.
1. IF you move to a new church, be sure that there is at least one major belief that’s important to you - and evident (and important)in the new church. In our case, we found person after person at ROCC who really ‘got’ the whole sovereignty of God issue. It especially comes through in worship - and it helps to put many frustrations encountered (and there will be frustrations!) into perspective. It helps us to tolerate a lot of administrative messes and minor theological disagreements.
2. I know this sounds simplistic, but don’t let the issue of ‘which church’ become overwhelming. There really can be joy in staying; and there can be joy in moving to a new church - because the joy-giver is not limited by where we worship. It’s all about who we worship. J-Mom

Comment by Brian

June 13, 2007 @ 1:31 pm

J-Mom,

Thanks for the lessons from experience.

It’s a good reminder that God is still God and that we should look to Him for fulfillment, rather than people and circumstances. Of course, easier said and all that…

What I’d like to avoid, but don’t really see how, is having to spend a lot of time figuring out if those important beliefs are in evidence or not. Maybe it will be obvious, who knows? I just would rather not spend 6 months at a place only to find out it wasn’t really what I thought it was. But I suppose those are the risks.

Comment by Alice

July 3, 2007 @ 8:09 pm

I just happened across your site while site-hopping and I know this is quite late in the discussion, but I’ve just recently been reading a book by Josh Harris, “Quit Dating the Church–Falling in Love with the Family of God”. It has some pretty incredible points and shows perhaps an attitude that we bring into church.

And in commenting on something Jenn said about it being like a divorce…well I would encourage you to think about the people you leave. There’s real pain and rejection and feelings of being dumped. Just a perspective from the other side.

I’m not saying that you stay regardless, it is a big decision that needs to be made for the right reasons.

Thanks for letting a stranger venture an opinion.

Comment by Brian

July 5, 2007 @ 3:24 pm

Alice,

It’s never too late to stop by and add to the conversation! One thing that I hope came through was a real reluctance to leave a church that we’ve been a part of for so many years - 16 in fact. We’ve laughed and cried and seen kids grow up and get married in this church.

And if we do end up leaving, I hope we are sensitive to the people that remain. But I have no illusions that there will be no “mess” involved. In the end, all we can do is do what we think is right what’s best for our family.

Thanks for stopping by!