Comment by Rey

July 24, 2006 @ 1:12 pm

Just because God has a plan for Israel doesn’t mean that we misguided believers stand on the side line cheering them on as they do wrong: ie, crucify Christ, persecute the Church, kill innocents, etc.

Let’s flip it around.

God has a plan for the Church. The Church must have an exalted position. Therefore anything the Church does is okay.

It doesn’t flow because there’s logical leaps going on from point A to B and C. Sure there’s some really misguided Christians who cheer on the sideline but there’s also some pretty misguided Christians who think the Church does no wrong. That doesn’t justify it, but it doesn’t negate the theology.

Comment by Brian

July 24, 2006 @ 3:09 pm

Hey Rey!

I understand your point about the theology not necessarily leading to an “Israel can do no wrong” kind of mindset. While I don’t agree with the theology itself, I do see that you can hold to that and still hold Israel accountable for it’s actions - the same as you would for the church were it to do something similar.

However, there are elements within Christendom that take more of the Pat Robertsonesque view. And unfortunately this seems to be the more vocal element - especially in my neck of the woods.

My “puts Israel on a pedastal above all others” was an attempt to specifiy what I consider the more extreme end of that particular theological viewpoint.

Thanks for the comment!

Comment by ilona

August 3, 2006 @ 3:26 am

At the risk of offending you all….
There is a vast difference between the Church and Israel- Irael is a temporal entity, the Church is not, it’s spiritual, it’s kingdom is spiritual.

But on a purely utilitarian rationale: Christain can live and survive anywhere. Thye have been persecuted, but not merely for their heritage as Christians, but on the basis of their beliefs.Let’s look at Israel. It must exist because the Jews have never been assured of acceptance anywhere. They need a physical land to be assured of existance as physical people. The lesson of Nazi Germany for Jews is that it doesn’t matter what their belief or affiliations are, if they are Jewish they are singled out, as a race. The Arabs could go anywhere in any number of nations and be welcome to live their lives. The Arab race is not persecuted and rooted out for racial background in the way the Jews have been.

The war that is going on right now is a matter of national sovreignty and ensuring existance- as much as they are able.
Even when spekaing of theology you have to face those facts about the physical reality for Jews.

In looking at the theology disputed, I don’t think there is just one type, but there are ideas of a covenantal relationship that God still has with Israel - there are ph=rophecies about her for end times… so it would make sense that God is still doing things through Israel as a nation. It was never on the basis of justification. It was never a case that Israel was justified in everything it does. If you hold to anything of the doctrines of depravity, it won’t even come up as a question: none of us can really do what is right and be justified in everything.

Our whole view of war has shifted and I think that is because we think we have sanitized it with the primary efforts being targeted bombing. I suppose that is the exchange: can’t glorify it? sanitize it. It isn’t reasonable to think that only “deserving” enemies will get punished in a war. As if that could be judged and targeted.

I think some of the criticisms on Israel tend to throw the whole concept of whether war is justified at all, if there is such a thing as “just war” in highlight. Then it becomes an issue of what we as Christians can support, and where our duty to temporal powers is divided from our duty to God.

I wish there was none of the bloodshed either in Iraq or in Lebanon. Yet, I support the sword of authority to work on behalf of doing what it takes to deal with the criminal elements of terrorists. At the same time, I do think that God is at work in the nations working out things that are plainly spoken of in the Bible… many of which involve Israel as a nation.

I empathize with your rejection of some of the elements of Christian Zionism, just as I empathize with those who dislike Christian Natinalism, but at their roots there are some truths, so I guess it is a case of not throwing the baby out with the bath water.

In the end, like it or not, Israel is pivotal in world politics, and it isn’t the Christians of any type who have made that so. Whatever their beliefs, they are of little consequence in the actual turn of events.

hope I didn’t offend with my comments- your post was so interesting to me and somehow this evening I am in the mood to go on about things… your blog is the lucky recepient;)

Comment by ilona

August 3, 2006 @ 3:29 am

I should’ve checked my typos, sorry.

Comment by Brian

August 11, 2006 @ 11:21 am

Ilona,

Thanks for your comments and no offense taken. Sorry for the slow reply. My main point in linking to that article was to show that there is another way of looking at the events in the Middle East that is not colored by our uniquely American brand of Evangelicalism.

I honestly do not know all the influences and forces which had led to Israel being a focal point on the world stage. What I do hear and see is people with Israel-colored glasses who have a very simple equation : National Israel = Good. Anything which promotes Israel as a nation and hastens the desctruction of her enemies fits into a neat little eschatological box which leads us closer to the Second Coming. This is not helped by people like Robertson, Falwell, and Van Impe. They do not see that Israel has also committed atrocities which they need to be held accountable for.

Ah well, didn’t mean to go on so long about that. Appreciate your comments - especially because we can hash this out as siblings in Christ.